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ACRO E-mail Archive Thread: [Acro] Re: ICAS & Aerobatic Cometency Cards

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ACRO E-mail Archive Thread: [Acro] Re: ICAS & Aerobatic Cometency Cards


Thread: [Acro] Re: ICAS & Aerobatic Cometency Cards

Message: [Acro] Re: ICAS & Aerobatic Cometency Cards

Follow-Up To: ACRO Email list (for List Members only)

From: Dleedom at

Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 21:35:29 UTC


Hi John,
First off, I'm not anti ICAS, or at least I wasn't. 
 I was a little upset at the increase in the paperwork fee but it's the only 
game in town so... 
Here's the story. I faxed my son's and mine, completed, double checked paper 
work in on a Monday morning, I called 25 mins later to make sure they had 
everything, including my credit card number. I was informed they had 
EVERYTHING they needed and that it was "almost done."   I figured it would 
either be mailed or faxed to the FSDO with the days paper work, or maybe the 
next day. No problem. 
A local friend flew with the ACE Wednesday afternoon (three days later) and 
while there talked to a guy putting on an airshow that weekend that he was 
flying. The guy invited my son and I to fly the show through this friend. My 
friend and his ACE, fax his stuff in 10 mins before ICAS closes then he calls 
to make sure they have everything. The lady says they do, so he asked about 
my paperwork since he had gotten me invited to this show. She tells him my 
stuff is done but she "would have to see" about faxing it because I didn't 
pay the fee to have it expedited. The next morning I talked to the local Fed 
and she informed me that the friends paperwork was in her fax machine that 
morning and mine wasn't. Further, the time on the fax was 9 mins after my 
friend said he faxed his papers to ICAS.  Is that not the definition of 
sitting on the paperwork? True I wasn't planning on this show, and if it just 
wasn't done yet, I could understand.
Even if it takes 600% of that much time, that's one hour. At $200 or $250.
I do know something of the horrors of paperwork, I'm currently activated with 
the AF reserves and, while not deployed overseas, I work in ops flight/ground 
scheduling, besides flying. While on some days when trying to coordinate air 
refueling, range times, fuel loads, weapons loads etc. it feels like it 
should be worth $200+ an hour, I can assure you that is not the rate at which 
I or most other folks are paid.
I can assure you that I have not gotten a 400% raise in the last two years 
Yes, I think $400, for paperwork, for my son and I to fly airshows for gas, a 
hotel room and $100-200, four or five times this summer on top of aircraft, 
insurance, maintenance, travel and other costs, is excessive. Then $50 to 
have someone set a few pages in a fax machine in less than a week or month, 
or just when it is done...well, you come up with the term for it.
True, I could charge much more to fly a show, of course I would fly very few 
if any shows. Several of the ones I have flown were for charities. 
If folks send bad paper work, how about charging them to fix it? That might 
get some folks to double check it before sending it.   
I have talked to 3 ACE's & 2 former ACE's. I've heard that one the West coast 
that charges $500, two of the 3 I talked to don't charge at all for updating 
at an airshow where they were there anyway. All said they had friends that 
they didn't charge, that's their business. I was told the new charge for an 
FAA checkride is $250, that's what I just paid for my son's check ride. It 
took the examiner 4-5 hours, at the airport, to do all the stuff (oral, 
aircraft books, paperwork and the flight) he does with a new private pilot. 
It usually takes an ACE less time, unless you are waiting on weather or have 
a problem. The license is good life, the comp card for one year. Like I said, 
the ACE charge is not my complaint. 
Please allow me to give a little perspective from those of us flying for the 
"love of the flying." I can't for the life of me understand how us "non-pros" 
are hurting the big airshow business. It's like high school basket ball 
hurting the NBA. I view us little folks like the opening band for a big rock 
concert, we play cheap or for free but we let the crowd see how really good 
the main attraction is. Little shows tend to raise peoples interest in air 
shows and flying in general. Like little league causes people to be more 
interested in baseball and then watch or go to a big league game. All of the 
big name performers I have actually met were very supportive, positive people 
and great role models. We are doing this because we love it. We "non-pros and 
newbes" are risking our tickets, our civilian flying careers, our expensive 
aircraft and, if we really screw up, our lives.
I hope you can see how I could get the feeling I am being taken advantage of.
I was pretty ticked off and did shoot off my mouth. For that I apologize. I 
don't know that it ever takes 30 days and for that statement I also 
apologize. As for my sentiment, I still feel the charge is excessive, it is a 
monopoly (who is ICAS's competition?) and it's the Fed at the FSDO and the 
ACE who take all the responsibility.
Attachement 1: part2.html


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