Acro Image

Aerobatics Server

ACRO E-mail Archive Thread: [Acro] Re: ICAS & Aerobatic Cometency Cards

[International Aerobatic Club] [Communications] [Aerobatics Images]

Disclaimer: These aerobatics pages are developed by individual IAC members and do not represent official IAC policy or opinion.

[Usage Statistics]

ACRO E-mail Archive Thread: [Acro] Re: ICAS & Aerobatic Cometency Cards


Thread: [Acro] Re: ICAS & Aerobatic Cometency Cards

Message: [Acro] Re: ICAS & Aerobatic Cometency Cards

Follow-Up To: ACRO Email list (for List Members only)

From: "Steve Hill" <shill at>

Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 23:57:55 UTC


Dave: Very good...A class act you are.........
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Dleedom at 
  To: Cudahy at 
  Cc: acro at 
  Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 5:32 PM
  Subject: [Acro] Re: ICAS & Aerobatic Cometency Cards

  Hi John, 
  First off, I'm not anti ICAS, or at least I wasn't. 
  I was a little upset at the increase in the paperwork fee but it's the only game in town so... 
  Here's the story. I faxed my son's and mine, completed, double checked paper work in on a Monday morning, I called 25 mins later to make sure they had everything, including my credit card number. I was informed they had EVERYTHING they needed and that it was "almost done."   I figured it would either be mailed or faxed to the FSDO with the days paper work, or maybe the next day. No problem. 
  A local friend flew with the ACE Wednesday afternoon (three days later) and while there talked to a guy putting on an airshow that weekend that he was flying. The guy invited my son and I to fly the show through this friend. My friend and his ACE, fax his stuff in 10 mins before ICAS closes then he calls to make sure they have everything. The lady says they do, so he asked about my paperwork since he had gotten me invited to this show. She tells him my stuff is done but she "would have to see" about faxing it because I didn't pay the fee to have it expedited. The next morning I talked to the local Fed and she informed me that the friends paperwork was in her fax machine that morning and mine wasn't. Further, the time on the fax was 9 mins after my friend said he faxed his papers to ICAS.  Is that not the definition of sitting on the paperwork? True I wasn't planning on this show, and if it just wasn't done yet, I could understand. 
  Even if it takes 600% of that much time, that's one hour. At $200 or $250. 
  I do know something of the horrors of paperwork, I'm currently activated with the AF reserves and, while not deployed overseas, I work in ops flight/ground scheduling, besides flying. While on some days when trying to coordinate air refueling, range times, fuel loads, weapons loads etc. it feels like it should be worth $200+ an hour, I can assure you that is not the rate at which I or most other folks are paid. 
  I can assure you that I have not gotten a 400% raise in the last two years either. 
  Yes, I think $400, for paperwork, for my son and I to fly airshows for gas, a hotel room and $100-200, four or five times this summer on top of aircraft, insurance, maintenance, travel and other costs, is excessive. Then $50 to have someone set a few pages in a fax machine in less than a week or month, or just when it is done...well, you come up with the term for it. 
  True, I could charge much more to fly a show, of course I would fly very few if any shows. Several of the ones I have flown were for charities. 
  If folks send bad paper work, how about charging them to fix it? That might get some folks to double check it before sending it.    
  I have talked to 3 ACE's & 2 former ACE's. I've heard that one the West coast that charges $500, two of the 3 I talked to don't charge at all for updating at an airshow where they were there anyway. All said they had friends that they didn't charge, that's their business. I was told the new charge for an FAA checkride is $250, that's what I just paid for my son's check ride. It took the examiner 4-5 hours, at the airport, to do all the stuff (oral, aircraft books, paperwork and the flight) he does with a new private pilot. It usually takes an ACE less time, unless you are waiting on weather or have a problem. The license is good life, the comp card for one year. Like I said, the ACE charge is not my complaint. 
  Please allow me to give a little perspective from those of us flying for the "love of the flying." I can't for the life of me understand how us "non-pros" are hurting the big airshow business. It's like high school basket ball hurting the NBA. I view us little folks like the opening band for a big rock concert, we play cheap or for free but we let the crowd see how really good the main attraction is. Little shows tend to raise peoples interest in air shows and flying in general. Like little league causes people to be more interested in baseball and then watch or go to a big league game. All of the big name performers I have actually met were very supportive, positive people and great role models. We are doing this because we love it. We "non-pros and newbes" are risking our tickets, our civilian flying careers, our expensive aircraft and, if we really screw up, our lives. 
  I hope you can see how I could get the feeling I am being taken advantage of. 

  I was pretty ticked off and did shoot off my mouth. For that I apologize. I don't know that it ever takes 30 days and for that statement I also apologize. As for my sentiment, I still feel the charge is excessive, it is a monopoly (who is ICAS's competition?) and it's the Fed at the FSDO and the ACE who take all the responsibility. 
Attachement 1: part2.html


© Dr. Günther Eichhorn
Email Guenther Eichhorn