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ACRO E-mail Archive Thread: Foreign Aircraft


Thread: Foreign Aircraft

Message: Re: Foreign Aircraft

Follow-Up To: ACRO Email list (for List Members only)

From: clesinski at

Date: Mon, 05 May 1997 16:20:50 UTC


Hi Folks

Van, sorry to hear you are having a tough time with your local FSDO.
Very nice follow-up on this issue from Klein. He has all the parts from the 
FAA documents there.

I have had a positive experience with the FAA. When I went through the 
certification process on my Yak, I sat down with the FAA inspector and 
8130.65. We went through all the sections and built the limitations list for 
both phase 1 and phase 2. Our understanding was that since landings are not 
prohibited within the 300nm area for group 1 aircraft (except class B) for 
proficiency flights that going and landing at airports other than home were 
ok. All other flights outside the 300nm area or into class B airports should 
be in the yearly program letter or faxed to the FSDO. I create a program 
letter at the beginning of each year and include the competitions, practices 
or airshows I will be attending for that year. The list is about 20 events. 
My FSDO is nice to send me a confirmation letter that they received my 
program letter and it is in my file. The guidelines to me (believe it or 
not) are appropriate and make sense.

BTW - Group 1 aircraft also include Pitts (factory built then modified and 
recertified in Experimental/Exhibition) or any other factory built aircraft 
yet I see these aircraft land everywhere. I don't know for sure but I think 
some Staudakers and Giles and even the Pitts S1-11B are Exp/Exh.

Hope things work out

Craig Lesinski
Evil Empire Aerobatika
New England Aerobatic Club - IAC 35

From: kleing at
To: iac at;  craig.lesinski
Subject: Re:
Date: Monday, May 05, 1997 9:52AM

<<File Attachment: ENVELOPE.TXT>>
Van, this is a typical bogus attempt by your FSDO to make more work for
themselves while causing you more grief.

The controlling document, 8130.65 is quite clear on this issue.  The
document describes four groups of experimental exhibition aircraft.

Our group is group I, Performance Competition Aircraft.  For this group is
says, "Proficiency area: A radius of 300 nautical miles from their
designated home base airport."

For group II, Turbine Powered Aircraft, such as Mig-17, L-29, T-33, etc it
says "Proficiency area: Limited to a radius of 600 nautical miles from the
designated home airport.  Proficiency flights will be limited to a non-stop
flight that begins and ends at the specified home airport, with sufficient
fuel reserve to meet the applicapable operating rules of part 91.
Operators who choose to fly to another airport within the assigned
proficiency area must notify their geographically responsible FSDO prior to
each proficiency flight away from their home airport."

For group III, piston powered warbirds, it has similar words as group I
except that the radius is 600 miles for aircraft of greater than 800 hp.

Group IV, other aircraft, says, "Proficiency area:  Limited to a non-stop
flight that begins and ends at the specified home airport, with sufficient
fuel reserve to meet ...."

So....if they had meant to limit us to a non-stop only flight to/from the
home airport, they would have said so as they did for Group II and Group
IV.  But they didn't.  The rules aren't such that everything not
specifically approved is forbidden.  It's the other way around, i.e.,
everything not specifically forbidden is approved.

The guy you're talking to is just an idiot.  If he won't give you an
appropriate set of operating limitations for your aircraft, just appeal it
to his boss, his boss's boss, etc till you find someone who knows how to
read.  If you don't have a copy of 8130.65, you should get one and read the
rules to the guy.  Hey, he doesn't really want to get a fax from you
everytime you go flying.  He doesn't have the power to say no in any case.
Note that even for group II, the requirement is to _NOTIFY_ not get
permission.  Even if you're flying a MiG-17 somewhere, all you need to do
is send the FSDO a fax and blast off.  Just ask Dave Sutton about this for
more details.

The FSDO really has no discretionary power to give you this kind of grief.
The 8130.65 document spells out in great detail exactly what each paragraph
of the operation limitations should say.  There is a list of possible
paragraphs and a table that says, for each group, which paragraphs should
be included.  Group I phase 2 gets paragraph 33 for proficiency area
description, and does _NOT_ get paragraph 34 or 36 which are the ones that
limit you to non-stop flights to/from your home airport.

Klein Gilhousen

At 7:32 AM -0600 5/4/97, Van Thurston wrote:
>Greetings all.
>I would like to get input from others regarding the way that local FAA
>are administering the operating limitations on
>Foreign manufactured aerobatic aircraft. I have had discussions with 
>FAA inspectors, aircraft owners and others and all seen to operate under a
>different assumption as to what a Class 1 Phase 2 limitation should be. 
>1 is acro types and phase 2 is after the first few hours are flown off and
>restrictions are removed(ha.ha)
>This applies to Yak 55m, Sukhois, Zlins and such with original 
>certificates issued after the 1993 moratorium was rescinded.
>At issue is whether any flights (AND LANDING) to airports other than the
>base" are allowed without the governing FISDO being notified by fax or
>mail of
>THAT flight. The FAA's own "ORDER" 8130.27 says:
>"(3) Proficiency Area. A radius of 300 nautical miles from their designated
>home base airport ( See note at the end of this section)
>The note says: no class A or B airports during proficiency flights.
>1> How has your local FISDO interpreted this rule? Does this mean you can 
>300 miles away for practice in a box and then 300 miles back but you cannot
>land anywhere. THIS IS LUDECROUS. This is what MY inspector has just 
>to me a the gospel.
>2> How are YOU interpreting it?
>3> Has this come up with your FISDO?
>4> Comments?
>Thanks for your input.
>If you would rather reply directly to me click this mail link:
>tek_doors at
>Or hit reply to the broadcast server for general discussion.
>Visit IAC 3's website at
>Or the Yak 55m website at
>BTW, Mark you calendars for the ATLANTA CONTEST on September 11-13 1997 
>day 14th.
>Check the IAC 3 Website soon for contest info. Or contact contest director
>Lloyd Wittenburg (lwittenbur at details. See ya'll  there!
>Van Thurston
>El Presidente: IAC3 Atlanta
>IAC 3074
>Yakovlev 930803


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